Curse

MSecorsky · Jul 11, 2005, 03:00 PM // 15:00

Sounds like the DiabloII assassin class to a degree?

TheIrishman · Jul 14, 2005, 10:36 PM // 22:36

A couple of quick things covered up:

One: What I meant in my statement about Elementalists bieng incabale of H2H:

A Necromancer would never in his life recieve H2H training (ie:swords, hammers, etc). However, a Necromancer who also trained as a Warrior WOULD recieve such training (I play such a class). Similarly, an Elementalist would have no IDEA how to maim someone with naught but thier own bodies, while an Elementalist who recieved training from a Brawler master would be quite capable of applying both his Brawler and Elementalist skills to make him a more then formidable opponent.
Also, in you example of a Monk wielding a Bow: That monk would HAVE to be a ranger secondary, wouldnt he? Otherwise, even with a bow that deal 16-28 or whatever the max is damage, he would still deal miniscule amounts. Am I correct?

Two: How a man with Bare Fists would be able to fight a man wearing Platemail or the likes:

Weapons that replace an armor slot. The two weapon types would be Gloves and Boots, and while they are equipped in the weapon slot, the corresponding armor slot would be unusable. (Example: a Brawler could be wearing his Leather gloves of fortitude and his leather boots of fleshrending, but he would only get the prefix, suffix, and damage bonuses from ONE of the two, but he would still get the defensive bonuses from both. A brawler secondary would merely enhance the gloves/boots of the set of armor he is wearing [Vampiric Bonelace Gloves]) They would start out as just plain weapons, similarly to warrior weapons, that only enhance the damage you deal. However, they could be upgraded with Toe and Heel additions (fingertip palm and additions for gloves). Toe additions would change the physical properties of the attack (whether an attack would deal Slashing or Crushing damage, or if it would increase Bleeding or Deep Wound durration) and the Heel would enchance the magical part of the weapon (IE: If your attacks steal mana/health, deal Fire damage, or if it would increase enchantment duration)

Some examples of unupgraded Brawler armor and Weapons: (Note: The items listed here would be the equivalant of 1.5 or 15k armor)

- Reinforced Leather Gloves: 15-25 Damage. +70 Defense, +10% defense against Physical attacks, -15% against elemental.
NOTE: Brawler Armor of the 'Reinforced Leather' all get the +75 Defense, +10 defesne against physical attacks, -15% against elemental. Similarly, all Gloves will deal the same amount of damage if forged at the same level crafter, so that Leather gloves and Silken gloves both made at Marhaans Grotto will both deal 15-25 damage.

- Hard Leather Boots: 10-30 Damage. +70 Defense, +15% against Piercing damage.
NOTE: Same as above note.
Other sets not listed here:
Tatoos: 65 Defense, +15% defense against elemental attacks.
Silken: 60 Defense, + to mana (varies per piece)

Here are some examples of upgraded weapons:

Vampiric Hard Leather Boots of Fortitude

Cruel Hand Tatoos of Warding
So on and So forth.

3: Why it would not become a running class:

Huh. Really, I don't know why it matters if it becomes a running class. No one complains about how W/R are the ultimate running class as of the moment. So what if they turn it into an efficient way to get from Beacons to Droknor? Good for them. So they want to waste thier time becoming a taxi service.

Sweet life. "All on board for Droknors! 3k a person, to be paid at completely random intervals!" Thats an exact quote, boys and girls. Only on Guild Wars.

Edit: Forgot to say 2 things:
1: Thanks for the images, Erace! I appreciate your help.
2: If I forgot anything, please feel free to tell me so. Also, please continue to post your insightful criticisms, but give me some credit here, and remember: A man learns not only from his mistakes, but from his accomplishments as well.

Gerbill · Jul 15, 2005, 09:53 AM // 09:53

This class doesn't have to be unarmed.
then people will complain about it being a lot cheaper then other classes, thus you have to spend less money on the class to become stronger in firepower so to speak thus it can't deal as much damage else it would not be fair.

how about putting in spiked/knuckle weapons.

Make Agility primary, seems better since that's quite something to have.

get rid of or nerf Neck breaker, it's overpowered, 33% is too much.

as you have it now you can just evade about all attacks and deal enough damage in the meantime with attacks to get someone below or near 33% and then you'll most likely have enough adrenaline to use neck breaker instantly.
thus being able to kill any class while you yourself hardly take damage, or just being the best tank ever.

p0t4T0 · Jul 15, 2005, 10:49 AM // 10:49

The class being unarmed would be stupid, as i wouldn't see can how an unarmed character could go up to a warrior in platemail and kil him, unless there were skills that could almost reverse the warriors power, but this would realy outbalance the proffessions maybe they should be able to equip two small dagers?

Epinephrine · Jul 15, 2005, 01:26 PM // 13:26

I agree with the pointlessness of this class - an unarmed person simply can not punch a person in plate and have any hope of injuring them. Wrist locks and such are doable, but only against a human, so non-humanoids would be nearly impossible to fight - wristlock on Glint? It simply isn't feasible. To perform the type of wrist-loack and such on non-humans would at the least involve a great deal of study of their anatomy, and would frequently be impossible for some types of creature - a human can't oppose the power of a troll or dragon.

The reason weapons work so well is their ability to increase penetration power with points and edges, to increase velocity of contact and to improve the damage dealt through leverage (swung weapons), energy storage (bows and crossbows) and momentum (mass-based attacks). An unarmed perrson has 0 chance of facing an armoured non-human foe 8 times his/her size (and 8 is easy to hit - double length, width and height and you have 8). When 1000 pounds of drake is coming for you you'd better have weapons or magic, your fists in gloves won't do it. It's a cute idea for PvP, as there it might be doable, but it just isn't possible in PvE.

john little · Jul 15, 2005, 01:48 PM // 13:48

I think that for a new class to exist there has to be a need for one - at the moment I cannot see any class that needs a new counter, so you would have to introduce two new classes, and i doubt there are two extra classes you could added without skill overlap (and the potential for unbalanced builds).

All a h2h specialist would be is a warrior with different skills - so why not simply add the skills to the warrior class in the expansion? I have yet to see any new class that wouldn't just be a handful of skills added to an existing class.

What I would like to see introduced are skills that are linked to armour (and vice versa), like a 'thiefs' set for mesmers that allow them to use more spells like arcane thievery (like stealing weapons or offhand items temporarily/adding their damage to attacks) or an adrenaline based 'agility' warrior skill that improves speed & evasiveness based on how low the armour class is.

Strong Fist · Jul 15, 2005, 02:25 PM // 14:25

Tha's a very cool idea. So far star wars galaxies is the only MMO, I know to have a brawler proffesion. Brawler was like warrior. You had Unarmed, Pikes, 1H Swords, 2H Swords. I do like this idea and it is very cool, brawlers dodging a lot would get a annoying though. And I do think we need more weapons. Maybe not weapon names, but like 1Handed, and 2Handed Swords, Spears, Great Swords, etc.

Scol · Jul 15, 2005, 02:33 PM // 14:33

I thought of that idea too.. h2h combat type character with like maybe some crippling effects or whatever. Also I was thinking of maybe a class that uses more "exotic" weaponry (katanas, staff, that freakin blade in crouching tiger..., things like that).

One class I'd be for is a BARD. Party buffer... maybe similar effect of a spirit (all allies in range get _____). Not sure what kind of weapons if anything they would use. I haven't quite thought it out yet.

goku19123 · Jul 15, 2005, 03:34 PM // 15:34

Already, that class is in for a nerf - Neckbreaker as an instant kill lol ?

knives · Jul 15, 2005, 05:09 PM // 17:09

Hmm..if you could couple this with the much sought after "Assasin" class, then you could do some deadly damage. I think to improve neckbreaker, the foe must be suffering from weakness, as well as be under 33% health for it to be able to kill them. I mean, you are still at the same strengths, but you just have less life, thats not just going to make you weaker. And also put a cap on it. Like: "Foe must be below 33% max health and suffering from weakness. Neckbreaker's damage cannot exceed half your maximum health."

BigTru · Jul 15, 2005, 05:19 PM // 17:19

Man... So many people don't understand that it's a FANTASY game. Ok, mabey in real life nobody could hurt a Warrior in Platemail with his fists (then again, I fail to see how a sworrd coul, too.), but it sure as hell worked in Final Fantasy XI.

"But zOMG! It's not realistic! U R STUPID!" and neither is an arrow being able to hurt someone in platemail or poison them through it, but who's counting?

This is a great profession idea. For those of you asking why we don't just add the skills to a Warrior... It's because we only have 1 melee class, 4 ranged casters, and 1 ranged attacker. Why didn't they just add all those caster skills into one super caster class? Because that would be stupid and overpowered and the game would lack variety. I don't know about you, but I'm very displeased that Warrior is the only primary melee class.

Mango Midget · Jul 15, 2005, 05:39 PM // 17:39

As a black belt

,I must say,many of those things are stupid.

How do you set somebody on fire with a punch? Light your fists on fire? If this was a spell it would probably have to be set the target on fire for 1-3 seconds and you would be set on fire aswell.

Exhastion is not a condition but it acts like one so that would be stupid exauhsting someone else.

Bodyslam??? 6 seconds of knockdown??? WTF?

Neckbreaker, it should have you do 30-70 extra damage if the target has less than 33% health.

Round kicks don't hit multiple people. Hook kicks and heel kicks do.

IMO this class doesn't fit in with the other classes.

Epinephrine · Jul 15, 2005, 05:40 PM // 17:40

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigTru

"But zOMG! It's not realistic! U R STUPID!" and neither is an arrow being able to hurt someone in platemail or poison them through it, but who's counting?

Umm, you obviously have never used a bow. My longbow will punch right through armour (have tested it) and if I poisoned the arrow it would most definitely deliver it.

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigTru

It's because we only have 1 melee class, 4 ranged casters, and 1 ranged attacker

No, we have a melee attacker, a ranged attacker, a counter class (mesmer), a heling class (monk), a curse/debuffing class/minion class (necro) and an offesive spellcaster (elementalist). Lumping the 4 casters together isn't sensible, they are quite different.

We also have essentially 3 warrior classes: Sword, Axe and Hammer.

BigTru · Jul 15, 2005, 05:43 PM // 17:43

Right... through solid DELDRIMOR steal 4 inches thick?

Anyways, that's not the point. This game isn't meant to be realistic, so what's it matter? Personaly, I've never seen a pet Moa peck through solid steel to make a warrior bleed.

BigTru · Jul 15, 2005, 05:46 PM // 17:46

Quote:

Originally Posted by Epinephrine

No, we have a melee attacker, a ranged attacker, a counter class (mesmer), a heling class (monk), a curse/debuffing class/minion class (necro) and an offesive spellcaster (elementalist). Lumping the 4 casters together isn't sensible, they are quite different.

We also have essentially 3 warrior classes: Sword, Axe and Hammer.

Um.. no. They all cast spells, so they are caster classes. By your logic on the sword, hammer, axe, that would mean we have 12 caster classes as opposed to 3 warrior classes? Wow, even better!

Epinephrine · Jul 15, 2005, 05:49 PM // 17:49

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigTru

Right... through solid steal 4 inches thick?

Anyways, that's not the point. This game isn't meant to be realistic, so what's it matter? Personaly, I've never seen a pet Moa peck through solid steel to make a warrior bleed.

Armour wasn't 4 inches think. The thickest armour was for jousting, which was too heavy to be worn normally. I don't have the figures before me, but I recall about 3mm (1/8th inch) being the thickest portions of a great helm, and most armour being less than 2mm in thickness (around 1.8mm on the chest for a heavy armour).

Not surprisingly, with a bodkin point even a hunting longbow at 70 pounds draw will punch through most armours with a direct hit. Chain armour is particularly bad - an arrow views chain armour as a loosely connected set of holes.

BigTru · Jul 15, 2005, 05:54 PM // 17:54

Quote:

Originally Posted by Epinephrine

Armour wasn't 4 inches think. The thickest armour was for jousting, which was too heavy to be worn normally. I don't have the figueres before me, but I recall about 3mm (1/8th inch) being the thickest portions of a great helm, and most armour being less than 2mm in thickness (around 1.8mm on the chest for a heavy armour).

Not surprisingly, with a bodkin point even a hunting longbow at 70 pounds draw will puch through most armours with a direct hit.

Um.. Mabey you should re-read what you replied to?

I said you could not pierce through Platemail and poison somebody, you stated that it pierces right through armor (so I'm assuming you are talking about all armor), so I ask if you can pierce through 4 inches of solid Deldrimor Steel. Obviously you cannot because it does not exist, which proves my point.

It is a fantasy game and there is nothing wrong with somebody punching somebody wearing 4 inches of steel and doing damage.

Arthur Eld · Jul 15, 2005, 05:56 PM // 17:56

The character is a cool idea, and pretty well thought out, but it's almost a worthless secondary class. Any spellcaster that secondaries to this class would become a front-line fighter, asking to die very quickly. If a warrior secondaries to this class, one or the other profession becomes completely worthless, as the warriors skills all depend on using a sword, hammer, axe, or shield. Same goes for the ranger, as the majority of their skills involve using a bow. Plus, if the armor doubles as the weapons, and non-primary brawler wouldn't be able to use the weapons of the class. That leaves the monk, which could work nicely, but could overpower other classes. Overall, good concept, layed-out and planned-out nicely, but I don't think it would work in Guild Wars.

Epinephrine · Jul 15, 2005, 06:03 PM // 18:03

Quote:

Originally Posted by BigTru

Um.. Mabey you should re-read what you replied to?

...

It is a fantasy game and there is nothing wrong with somebody punching somebody wearing 4 inches of steel and doing damage.

Ah, I assumed, apparently erroneously, that you hadn't gone and jumped topic on me. You also edited it to say DELDRIMOR, after I had posted.

No, arrows do not punch through 4 inches of steel. Really, nothing much does, so it would be pointless. I'm all for fantasy, but if you are using humans and such, the physics should roughly equate to ours. If you want to visualise your guys wearing 3000 pounds of armour (which is an esimate of the weight at 4 inch thickness) that's fine, but it is so unreal that it defies logic. Add to that the fact that nobody could penetrate that, so your swords would need to be about 40 times as massive with cosiderably more force to penetrate it.

Worlds (even fantasy worlds) need to be consistent - they have humans and human style armours and weapons - which only function against one another at certain values of force, mass, density etc...; as a result they follow logical physics resulting from it.

Kaleban · Jul 15, 2005, 06:21 PM // 18:21

Actually, all the nay-sayers out there are basically wrong.

Those who say its unrealistic for a caster to take Brawler as a secondary, I simply point out all the IW Mesmers, E/W Sword PBAoE, Necrowarriors, Mo/W Smiters, etc.

For those who say its unrealistic for a warrior to secondary to this class, I'll point out that many class combos with warrior sometimes use just Strength and Tactics, and the armor of the warrior.

For those who say its stupid for a Ranger to secondary to a Brawler, I point to all the sword and axe wielding rangers who use preps and spirits to make melee attack deadly. Apply Poison on gloves? Hoo-rah.

A simple solution to the problem of the armor doubling as the weapons is that all armors in the hand and glove slot of ALL the classes have weapon properties (i.e. damage and prefix/suffix), but you need to be of the Brawler class (primary or secondary) to use them as weapons. Also, the Brawler's primary armor, being purpose built, have the best damage range, with warrior second, then ranger, then the four caster classes.

And even though the warrior has three weapon skill lines, he's still a warrior, his abilities and job define his role, not his choice of weapon. If we were to follow the logic of a skill defining the class, then each type of Elementalist would be four separate classes, etc., etc.

Oh and for all those people who say the idea of a brawler/mystical kung-fu guy taking on a Dragon/plate-armored warrior/etc. is unrealistic, I say its unrealistic for ANY class to take on a Dragon or any of the weird creatures that ANet has come up with. I don't remember St. George or the Crusaders taking on Charr...

Duh! Its a game.

/rant